21. That's a great point, Orlie. If I'm to "blame" for an influx of AOL users, can I also take credit for them?

Maybe Prok can give me some estimates as to how many people we are are talking about so I can include them on my resume :D

Posted at 12:23PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Aimee Weber

22. I have no doubt in my mind that if this blog were closed down tomorrow, the amount of griefing incidents would decrease.

Yes, Aimee, Caliandris and others who benefit financially and reputationally from this high-profile gig need to take OWNERSHIP for what's happening to the world. What's happening is that in the name of ushering in lots of accounts easily to satisfy pressure from venture capitalists in the usual rush to prove MMORPG subscriptions, and in the rush to get those loads of people to buy lots of content, the issues of quality of life, policing, community-building, zoning, etc. is being solved in only one way: go buy a private island.

So I think island-owning Aimee who is shielded from the results of her handiwork, and the handiwork of her LL, needs to see what's happening and feel some responsibility for it. It can't be all about My Gig and My Content Sales. Ultimately, if you don't care about the bulk of the population, including those who live on the mainland, you won't have customers to go on buying your content. If they are griefed out, they leave. So it's even in self-interest, although evidently not part of the "Platformist Party" ideology to care about what happens to people inworld.

Therefore I call on Aimee and co. to exercise some social responsibility and think about and promote ideas to curb griefing and destruction in SL. Sliders on the avatar wasn't a workable proposition and wasn't accepted by LL in the end anyway. Anti-push on land is only a dent in the problem. So let's hear what other concepts Aimee and company would like to editorialize about regarding destructive new non-accountable accounts and how the world can be protected from them.

Posted at 2:05PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Prokofy Neva

23. Forget slides on the avatars; I call for avatars on the slides. Put a water slide on every sim, and people will be having so much fun they won't have time for griefing. Or for writing long-winded paranoid posts.

Water slides. An idea whose time has come.

[Samantha smiles, curtseys, and runs off to invest in water slide companies]

Posted at 2:08PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Samantha Poindexter

24. Prokofy, your "claim" that SLI is responsible for bringing in "new" people from AOL is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, Weblogs Inc., the parent company of SLI, is owned by AOL, but that has absolutely no bearing on how people find SL. I think it's more the mainstream media attention to SL that's drawing in new people, whether it be from AOL or otherwise. I think you're just looking for any reason to single out Aimee for something that she's not even remotely responsible for.

Maybe you should find something better to do than pick on someone who has no interest in listening to your SL conspiracy theories and let the rest of us enjoy this site.

Posted at 2:12PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Michael Cela

25. "Aimee's amen-corner here who live on half-sims on private islands or whatever don't feel the brunt of these new people causing this havoc."

Fair point, Prokofy: I have real-world money to spend on my virtual experience, and some folks don't or choose not to spend. I'll also grant that both you and Aimee have been in world a lot longer than myself. I can talk from my own experience, but at best I can infer based on what other, more long-term residents experience.

I actually knew Prokofy Neva's name before I knew Aimee's. Hamilton Au and Torley Wong (Linden now) were in that first group of half a dozen names I picked up as well. That's because I read a lot before I went in world. Once in world, when I saw content that intrigued me, the names stuck in my mind. Aimee's came up several times, as did Jakkal Dingo and Starax Statosky and a handful of ovthers. They create things, and I have an interest in creation, and so I admire their work. I also happen to like Aimee's style of writing, and her seemingly positive outlook. Maybe its just because I don't know her well enough (at all, really) to have seen her "dark side".

But frankly, I think Prokofy is granting far more importance to Aimee than is reasonable. Although I enjoy reading Aimee's posts more than Prokofy's, that's purely a personal preference. I can see lots of people who have the opposite perspective, and that's perfectly all right. And truthfully, I spend far more time reading Hamilton Au, Caliandris, Akela, Katier Rietveld, Gwyneth Llewelyn, and Pixeleen Mistral than I do reading Aimee.

Perhaps Aimee would love to have the power Prokofy ascribes to her- maybe she imagines she does. But I can't imagine anyone having never heard of Second Life before racing in world because of Aimee. People are coming in world because of the real-world press coverage, the articles in Business Week, the people like Robert Scoble who mention it over and over in their blogs.

The behavior problems the newcomers often exhibit can be chalked up to three factors: 1) exposure to other MMOGs where property and personal "space" has no meaning, or is enforced through game mechanics; 2) lack of proper orientation when first entering the grid regarding concepts of "property"; 3) general asshat behavior that exists in every on line world as a result of defective humans hiding behind anonymity.

If anything, I'd say that the drama generated by this strange and persistent "hate on" you have for each other is drawing much more AOL-type attention to Second Life than anything Aimee could do by herself. Why do you both want to make the other seem so important to the world by blaming each other so publically?

Generally, when dealing with trolls (and both of you undoubtedly feel the other is being a "troll"), the best strategy is to ignore them. That's my suggestion, at least.

Posted at 2:23PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Tomas Hausdorff

26. Well Michael, I'm sort of interested in Prok's theories in a "can't-keep-myself-from-looking-at-a-car-accident" sort of way.

But I say Prok should show us some quantitative evidence. How about finding ONE new SL user (perhaps named HawtKisser454) who will verify that they are an AOLer who found SL because of AOL marketing of SLI.

Call it the AIMEE CHALLENGE! Find One person who:

1. Is an AOLer
2. Discovered SLI via some form of AOL promotion (rather than Google like the rest of us)
3. Joined up SL because of SLI (bonus points if it was because of Aimee)

If these folks are coming in droves, it shouldn't be hard to find ONE person who fits Prok's theory.

Posted at 2:23PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Aimee Weber

27. Okay, I can't take this anymore. Prokofy, congratulations. Thanks to your incessant muck-raking and whining, I have to comment.

Let's play Devil's Advocate here, and say that yes, this blog is responsible for pulling in tons of AOL users to SL. Let's say that most of these users turn out to be griefers (it beggars the imagination to say that they are ALL griefers).

Do we then say 'No AOL users may have a Second Life account'? That's akin to saying 'Sports Illustrated, by covering football games, is responsible for terrorist activity in stadiums.' We don't mandate who gets to have a Second Life account, Prokofy, and we never will. The user is solely responsible for their own actions.

At the same time, do you really believe that even if we four bloggers were to stop blogging tomorrow that this blog would go away? Weblogs, Inc. came to US to participate in this, therefore it was Weblogs, Inc. who wants this to continue. They will find others should we go away. Additionally, we've received more positive comments on this blog, both here and in-world, for me to believe that the majority of people would appreciate seeing this continue.

Prokofy, there will always be griefers in any game, in any system, in any virtual world. They were there before this blog started, and will be there regardless of this blog's hypothetical disappearance.

It is the responsibility of all good people to lead by example, and show the benefits of virtuous behavior by modeling it, not by pointing fingers and demanding that others change to suit us. True change comes from within, not from imposition without.

I have yet to read or hear of anything positive from you, Prokofy. What have you done that's benefited anyone? What have you done lately? Are you well-liked? To a PERSON, the only time I ever hear your name mentioned is to speak derisively of you. Anais Nin once said 'We do not see things as they are; we see things as WE are.' Given that all you seem to do is complain about things, I have to conclude that you must be a bitterly unhappy person, without the ability to grant the benefit of the doubt to anyone, because it has not been given to you.

This attitude not only does you a disservice, it harms everyone. Spend some time creating something of use to us all, and you'll deserve the right to complain of others. Until then, the only thing you're doing is angering those of us who have learned that if you want things to change, you must be the one to change them, and that pointing out a problem is not the same thing as helping to solve it.

Grow up, Prokofy, and grow up right now. Learn something from your peers and contribute something more than ill-tempered whingeing. You've been given the opportunity to become a valued member of the community and you've squandered it. If I'm not mistaken, you will now respond to this comment with your typical vitriol, unfounded assertions, and despicable personal attacks. You are predictable and without redeeming merit. We laugh at you, Prokofy, and dismiss your rants. The only reason we do not rise as one and demand your removal is because that's not the way responsible beings conduct themselves. Enjoy squatting like a toad in your fetid miasma of seething hatred and self-importance. We all look forward to the day you decide to join us as a well-adjusted member of society.

Everyone else, I apologize for the length of my comment. I'm now done with Prokofy Neva.

Posted at 2:42PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Akela Talamasca

28. As high priest of aimee weebler, i blame aimee fo everything

Posted at 3:21PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Jake reitveld

29. Aimee, I'll take you up on that challenge!

I'll get to work right away. Heh.

Posted at 10:06PM on Sep 1st 2006 by Michael Cela

30. "The user is solely responsible for their own actions."

Exactly. And this puts Aimee to blame...why?

"there will always be griefers in any game, in any system, in any virtual world. They were there before this blog started, and will be there regardless of this blog's hypothetical disappearance."

And in real life. People are jerks both in and out of Second Life. But we deal with them, as opposed to cutting their heads off saying they don't deserve to live (well, we have the death penalty, but that's besides the point >.>)

"It is the responsibility of all good people to lead by example, and show the benefits of virtuous behavior by modeling it, not by pointing fingers and demanding that others change to suit us. True change comes from within, not from imposition without"
Akela for blooger of the year.

Posted at 7:17AM on Sep 2nd 2006 by Kai Kubo

31. Aimee, one of your AOLers left her freebie box of cheap-ass clothes on my lawn. I believe her name is Ms. "JeWelZZZ McFlaffernatty". Would you please tell her to come remove it? Thank you and I hope it doesn't happen again!

Posted at 2:13PM on Sep 2nd 2006 by Kanker Greenacre

32. "To pretend that Aimee is NOT bringing in droves of accounts is silly -- of course she is, and that's why she was invented in the first place and that's why she and LL sought to have the high-profile AOL-sponsored blog."

Linden Lab has never had anything to do with this blog. Nor did Aimee start this blog. This blog was actually my idea, and I contracted Aimee to blog here because she's a kickass writer with a passion for SL. Neither Mariah Carey nor any butterflies have been harmed during the making of this blog.

However, I suspect if I undergo false repressed memory therapy I will discover that my secret ulterior motive for launching this blog was to drive hordes of griefers into Second Life.

So, you can blame me.

Posted at 8:28PM on Sep 6th 2006 by barb dybwad

33. Ok there seems to be confusion here. My response above was aimed entirely at the pster of comment number 11. Who closed the post with the remark that at least aimee is concise. It should not be construed by anyone, especially not Aimee as aimed at her.

But now I am dragged in to explain myself. Clarity, and not necessarily brevity are to be aimed for in posting. I often find myself sitting on the fence between Aimee and Prokofy. Both of them have treated me with great respect and consideration. I also know there is genuine antithapy between them, and I try to stay out of it, avoiding taking sides. I find at times I agree with both of them, and neither of them.

About the AOL thing, I happen to disagree with Prokofy. Aimee is no more responsible for the influx of griefers than a tree is responsible for where its shade lands. In some ways LL is responsible because they removed the age verification. But ultimately, the decision to be a greifing ass hat is one that is made by the griefer themselves, and I blame them.

The trouble in SL is that in this new world, where justice is based on a groundswell of popular negative opinion, LL has refused to invest in enforcement, and frankly does not see itself in that role. The grid thus thrives on a state of anarchy. If I find fault, I fault LL for not picking up the sword of justice, while the land slides into ruin. In the case of LL, Arthur has lost the grail.

However, one thing I observed in the forums regarding prokofy is that the basic outcry against his posts was that they were too long. If people could find no other criticism of prokofy neva, they would invariable resort to "I won't read this, your posts are too long, go away." That is not something Aimee ever said, and was not the basis of the conflict between them. But for many others, such nonsense was and is the stuff of drama. It is a manifestation of ignorance, and thus it offends me; like jessica simpson and the chicken of the sea.

I disagreed with banning Prokofy, and I disagree with the way LL handles discipline, the Banning of cristiano and mulch ennui show further that there is no system of enforcement beyond the arbitrary need to quiet the rabble. LL never made the connection that clear standards and even enforcement would have kept the forums in line. I hope that other forums sort that out.

To Aimee I can only apologize for making you think I would chide you in that fashion. My regard and respect for you are much higher. I am sorry for the confusion of my post.

Posted at 11:08AM on Sep 7th 2006 by Jake reitveld

34. Well yes aimee is concise. But then sometimes concepts need expanding on. My feelings about Prok and Aimee are no secret and I am not taking sides now. But I am opposed to people whose only response to posts is "I won't read them, they are too long."

Learn to read faster. Or simply don't read the post and move on. But please don't contribute to the needless hostility by whinging on and on about how you can't read long posts.

Posted at 11:08AM on Sep 7th 2006 by Jake Reitveld

35. Prokofy wrote "People with numbers in their names tend to come from AOL. AOL now sponsors an SL blog -- Aimee's. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that Aimee's high-profile and high-traffic blog, [snip], is bringing in droves of new accounts."

You're right Prok, it doesn't take rocket science. Science implies something more than unsubstantiated assumption and paranoid conspiracy theory which certainly isn't what you offered up. *laughs*

Here's a more rational assumption: SL is reaching the mainstream and appealing to a lot of people who aren't regular gamers - people who have handles they want to keep from wherever they came from. Many of those places have millions of users so that getting a handle there without a number appended is virtually impossible. They join SL and decide they'd like to have some continuity with the name they've been using previously so they bring the numbers with them. No tinfoil hat needed.

Posted at 8:52PM on Oct 22nd 2006 by Chip Midnight